An Interview with Mike Curato

Episode Transcript

[Promotion for Shakespeare and Company: Writers, Books, and Paris]

Mike Curato This is an all hands on deck moment because it can't just be a few authors and educators and students. It has to be a much larger coalition.  

Virginia Marshall This is Mike Curato. He’s the author and illustrator of many children's books, and recently, he published his first graphic novel for teens. That book is called Flamer, and it’s a story about a boy named Aiden who goes to sleepaway camp. He’s the only Asian kid at camp and he’s starting to realize that he’s gay. Aiden deals with bullying and thoughts of suicide over the course of the story. It’s a moving, important book ... and it also happens to be the fourth most frequently challenged book last year.  

Adwoa Adusei While making this series, we got to interview three of the four most challenged authors on the American Library Association’s list from 2022, the fourth being Toni Morrison, and we have a whole episode devoted to Morrison coming up next month.

Virginia Marshall We’ll be releasing interview with those other writers as bonus episodes over the next few weeks. We have one with Maia Kobabe, author of Gender Queer, George M. Johnson, author of All Boys Aren’t Blue ... and Mike Curato, whose interview we’re bringing you today.  

Adwoa Adusei Virginia talked with Mike about his writing, and how it feels to have his story vaulted into national headlines as parents, politicians, and school boards campaign to remove his book from school and library shelves. Their conversation touches on suicide. If you or someone you know is experiencing suicidal thoughts or is in crisis, you can talk to someone at the suicide and crisis lifeline. Just call 988. It’s free, and it’s available 24 hours a day.  

Virginia Marshall Let’s get back to the interview. I’m Virginia Marshall.

Adwoa Adusei And I’m Adwoa Adusei. You’re listening to Borrowed and Banned: a podcast about America’s ideological war with its bookshelves. 

[Music] 

Virginia Marshall So your book Flamer came out in 2020, and I was reading another interview with you where you said, you know, at first it didn't get a lot of pushback, not a lot of challenges. And then you kind of saw this wave in 2021 and 2022, which is when we saw a lot of those books being banned across the country. So I wondered if you could talk about what that was like to kind of initially not have pushback and then be part of this big national story?

Mike Curato It’s interesting because I had some anxiety before the book came out about how it might be received, and I was nervous that some people might object to strong language and, you know, the suggestion of sexual acts. But it's also very much rooted in my own experience. And so I felt and my editor agreed that I could stand by everything that happens in the book not as anything sensational or sordid, but real things that I went through and that teenagers experience.  

So, I was relieved after a time because when the book first came out in 2020, there was no pushback at all. You know, the harshest criticism I might have seen online would go something like, “this book made me uncomfortable, but…”  there would always be a caveat. “But I can understand why some teenagers could need it.”  

[Music] 

And then when '21 rolled around, once I had completely let my guard down, the onslaught came and it was ... it was quite something. I remember feeling sick, physically ill, starting to read the news. I have a memory of an angry parent in a video holding up my book and calling it profanity. And I was shaking, I felt like, how can this be happening today? 

I knew this was politically motivated. These people don't know who I am. And most people who have challenged my book, I'm sure, haven't even read it. It's very easy, especially with a graphic novel, to take a passage out of context. Graphic novels are particularly vulnerable because it’s a visual medium and it's easy to take a picture and make a quick TikTok and even conflate some parts of the story that aren't real. People have made Flamer sound like it's cover to cover pornography. Which is just not true. 

Virginia Marshall You mentioned the book being challenged because of obscene content or, you know, people saying that it ... kind of pointing to the sexual acts as the reason that it's being banned. But there is so much in Flamer that isn't that. Can you talk about, I guess, what messages that are getting lost when the book challengers are kind of hyper-focused on all of the other content? 

Mike Curato Yes. Thank you for asking that, because the sensationalized, you know, sexual acts … which, I just want to take a moment to say there is no actual intercourse in this book, there is no sexual acts between two people. I think that's important to note. But meanwhile, also, I mean, that amounts to, I don't know, 2 percent of the book. You know, it's a few pages out of 360 pages. And the book is, above all else, I hope a life raft for people who are feeling isolated and desperate.  

When I was 14, I wanted to kill myself because I felt so lost. I felt like there is no place for me in this world. And I didn't see a happy future as an option for me. And I had nothing to look to to give me hope. You know, as authors for young people, we are always asked to think about what books we would have wanted to have when we were younger. And this is the book for my younger self. And, yes, it was important for me personally to make it, but it was even more important because I know there are people who are going through the same things that I was going through when I was their age, and I feel a duty to be able to support them in the way that I can.  

[Music]

My writing is my activism. My writing is the way that I can support my community. Aside from that, the other really important messages in the book are not just the power of hope, but the power of resilience, the power of friendship. And I think it's powerful to see a young boy who is effeminate, who is a person of color, to show him having three dimensions and value and a soul.  

Virginia Marshall What were the books that you did read, whether they were required reading or otherwise as a kid?  

Mike Curato So, I was a bit of a reluctant reader when we transitioned out of picture books and into just reading chapter books and then middle grade novels. I was kind of overwhelmed by so much type and not so many pictures, but I loved comic books so much. Comics are what kept me going as a reader. And so because of that, it was really important for me to write Flamer in that same medium. Because I want to get through to everyone, right? I want to get to the reluctant reader.    

And then I had some teachers that put some pretty powerful books in my hands, like Toni Morrison's Beloved. Even though I grew up learning about slavery, that book is what made it real for me. Toni Morrison is, of course, also on the banned books list today, as she was in the eighties, as she was throughout her career. 

There's something heartbreaking to me more than anything about being on that list with Toni Morrison because I feel ashamed for our country that her name could possibly be on that list. But it's also a boon in a way, because she endured. She kept making incredible work. And she did not hold anything back. And that gives me a lot of courage to keep making work. I mean, everyone I see on that list, I feel a camaraderie with. And I want to link arms with them.  

Virginia Marshall I wonder if there are any stories from young people that you've heard where they are connecting to your book that you want to share? 

Mike Curato I was in the Midwest doing an event this past year, and a young person approached and, you know, they were very timid and said there's a lot they would like to say to me, but they are nervous, so they can they give me a letter? And I said, of course. And they just handed me this letter and asked me to write something in their copy of Flamer to help them through dark days.

[Music]

I read the letter in my hotel room and cried. I knew what the letter would say before I opened it, it felt like. There are kids out there struggling right now and they just need some support. You know, even just a few kind of words can go such a long way, not to mention a book that someone can see themselves in. And in these really hard moments during the banning, I have to remind myself of those people. You know, out of a crowd of 5000 screaming parents, I feel like I can still hear one scared kid whispering for help. And that's the person I'm trying to listen to through that mess.  

What's especially frustrating for me is these attacks on me aren't just about hurting me. It's to make an example of me. We authors are to be made examples of to put fear in the hearts of not just other authors, but fear in the hearts of people who would read our books, people who would buy or stock our books. That is what's happening. It's a scare tactic.    

Virginia Marshall I think that's really key to identify, right? It's like this culture of fear, and worryingly prevents others from sharing their stories, right?

Mike Curato Yeah. Because in in shaming us, they shame the children indirectly from interacting with our work. Since this all began, I go through tough news cycles. I go through cycles of getting requests from educators who are in need of support. And I've gotten to the point where I can't keep up with the requests, and even though I know I'm one person and I can't do everything, I feel like I am failing them. And that's very hard.    

I'm not complaining about the people who are reaching out. I really feel for them. Something I hope people will bear in mind is that all of the authors and illustrators that are going through this censorship, we are not only expected to be spokespeople for the freedom to read movement, we are also expected to carry on with creating new work and paying our rent and mortgages and buying groceries and still, you know, having some life. I guess I just want to share that. Just, I'm not sure if everyone realizes that sometimes it's just too much and I need to take breaks.

And I mean, I've said this before, but my writing is my activism. And so while I am writing letters and making videos, it's time away from the work that I need to be doing. And I am working on a book right now that is really important to me. And it's a book, I think, some people will really need and I feel very torn in two directions right now. So, that's been a struggle.  

Virginia Marshall Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. And I think it's like, we're at a point now where we need a lot of other people to step in and help fix this, because it's too much, right, on your shoulders. I've heard this from like young activists, too. They're just like, we need adult support, like that kind of message. It's really a time for more community involvement. And also I just want to say thank you for agreeing to this interview. I know how many you get, and we're really grateful to be able to share your story. 

Mike Curato I love BPL and, you know, I used to live in Brooklyn. And I remember the day that y’all announced the QR code, and I did like, some sort of like, sports, like, “Yeah!” You know, like, take that! [laughs]  

Virginia Marshall [laughs] Aw, that’s really cool. Thank you so much, Mike. I should let you get back to writing your books, because that's really important.  

Mike Curato Thanks so much. Virginia.  

[Music]  

Virginia Marshall Before we leave you today, we wanted to let you know about a webinar that Unite Against Book Bans is putting together, all about the benefit of diverse books. Staff at the ALA’s Office of Intellectual Freedom and First Book dig into the data to talk about the positive effects of diverse books on readers, and how the conversation around book bans impacts teacher morale and student learning. That webinar is on Wednesday November 8th at 6pm Eastern and we’ll put a link to that in our show notes. 

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Virginia Marshall Borrowed and Banned is a production of Brooklyn Public Library and receives support from the Metropolitan New York Library Council’s Equity in Action Grant.   

Adwoa Adusei This episode was produced by Virginia Marshall. Our Borrowed team includes Ali Post, Fritzi Bodenheimer, Robin Lester Kenton and Damaris Olivo. Ashley Gill and Jennifer Proffit run our social media. Lauren Rochford helps with the emails. John Snowden designed our logo.  

Virginia Marshall The Books Unbanned team at BPL includes Summer Boismier, Jackson Gomes, Nick Higgins, Leigh Hurwitz, Karen Keys, and Amy Mikel.