An Interview with George M. Johnson

Episode Transcript

[Promotion for Pulso Podcast]

Virginia Marshall Hey Borrowed listeners, just a heads up that the interview you’re about to hear mentions violence against Queer people. It’s a brief mention right at the beginning, so if that’s not something you want to hear about right now, feel free to skip ahead and come back to it when you’re ready.  

[Music] 

George M. Johnson Back in 2017, there was a young man by the name of Giovanni Melton. He was killed by his father and one of the police reports that came out, it stated that his father said, "I would rather have a dead son than a gay son." And reading that, it just affected me in such a major way.  

Adwoa Adusei This is George M. Johnson, writer, activist and author of the Young Adult memoir All Boys Aren’t Blue. 

Virginia Marshall All Boys Aren’t Blue is Johnson’s first book, published in 2020. When we talked to George, they brought up the motivation to write their memoir, starting with the violence against Black queer people like Giovanni Melton. 

George M. Johnson I wrote multiple articles about that situation, but it just didn't feel like it was enough. And that really became the catalyst for me to say put together the book All Boys Aren't Blue, to really tell the totality of the experience of growing up being Black and Queer, and being on a journey trying to figure out your identity in America.

Adwoa Adusei All Boys Aren’t Blue has been frequently banned and challenged in the past three years. It was number two in 2022, right next to Toni Morrison’s The Bluest Eye. 

Virginia Marshall Morrison came up a lot in our interview. She's a big inspiration for George, but they didn’t read Morrison until they were in their twenties, in large part because Morrison’s books have been challenged and banned pretty much since their publication decades ago.   

George M. Johnson Toni Morrison is one of the greatest writers, period, of all times. But unfortunately for us, we have to find her. Like it doesn't—she doesn't find us because of how they block her from being in school. So we have to find her. So it wasn't until I was an adult that I actually was able to start reading her and getting into her and really, really understanding what real writing was about, and what culture was about and what Black writing was about and the importance of it. She still guides the way I write and many, many things about what I want to write about.  

Adwoa Adusei We’ll talk a whole lot more about Toni Morrison in our next episode. But today, we wanted to bring you the rest of our conversation with George M. Johnson. We covered a lot: their activism, their family, and their motivation to keep writing. I’m Adwoa Adusei. 

Virginia Marshall And I’m Virginia Marshall. You’re listening to Borrowed and Banned: a podcast series about America’s ideological war with its bookshelves. 

[Music] 

Virginia Marshall One of the things I liked most I was really struck by in reading your book was the amount of love there is and between characters, but especially your family, the narrator’s family’s support that they give to their Black queer child. Can you talk about why that was important to include, what you were doing with that? 

George M. Johnson Yeah. I mean, you know, we can look at what just happened recently with O’Shea Sibley. We're talking about somebody who was literally killed because he was vogueing at a gas station. When I write this book and I wrote this story, I think people entered into it like, we're going to assume, you know, the worst, like George's family was terrible. And they probably wanted to beat him and threw him out and all these things. And it's like, no, that's not my story. I don't know whose story it is, but that wasn't my story. And I thought it was important because people will say like, Black communities are more homophobic than other communities. And it's like, every community deals with homophobia. Like every single one, we just get painted the "welfare queen," "the homophobe," like we get painted in the worst light. And so I felt it was important for me to be like, you know what? Let me tell the truth about how my community operates. Like, yeah, we got homophobia, but we also got love, too, and we got this and we got that. And let me tell the real, real truth about that. And so it was important for me to use my family as that vessel, because I want more families to start to realize that you don't have to make queer children disposable. Like, you can love on queer children and support queer children and I not made disposable and I became a very, very powerful, great person in this world. And I want more people who are queer to be great and powerful people in this world. But that starts with having somewhere that you can call home. And I always, even to this day, have somewhere that I can call home. 

Adwoa Adusei There is definitely a tension between letting your work speak for itself and then also having to stand up to defend your words. As a writer, how have you navigated that, that tension?

George M. Johnson Yeah, it’s interesting. It's tough, just like you said. Like, you know, you let the work speak for itself, but then also, like you have a real world aspect to it as well. You know, going out, I get the real, in-my-face aspect of what my words mean to other people. And I think for me, it's like the understanding that it's just, you know, it's not just words on a page. Like, the words are healing people. The words are saving people. The words are encouraging people in so many ways. It makes it hard at times, you know, because it's like now when I go out, especially in like queer spaces, like people recognize my face or people are quick to like, want to talk about the book and talk about like what I've done or how I've saved them and all of those things. And that's great, but it's also a lot at times. But I would never trade it in for anything in the world. You know, I understand what my purpose is, and I understand why I wrote the book and why I continue to write books. And it's just something that you just kind of have to learn to get used to.

I would say addressing the censorship has been an opportunity in itself.  I care about protecting education in this country, but I really don't care about these people who want to ban books, like I could care less about them. My job is not to, like, convince them. My job is to continue to put this work out in the world and do what I have to do. Like Toni Morrison said, racism is a distraction because there will always be one more thing. So it's like, even if I corrected and sanitized All Boys Aren't Blue, they would find another section of the book to try and ban it. The only thing I need to do is shut these people down and pay these people no mind and continue doing the work that I'm doing. And so, that was the conscious decision that I made when I decided to fight the book bans and do everything that I'm doing, because it's just like these people are trying to censor materials that I know have helped save lives. And they claim it's in the name or the vein of wanting to "protect children." But it's like, which children are you protecting? And I mean, we have literally seen where you have congressman and state legislature who have queer children still making anti-LGBTQ bills. I'm not going to go back and forth with these people. I going to just keep fighting to make sure that I ensure that the things in the materials that I want to be in a world stay in the world.

Virginia Marshall I did want to ask you about one more book challenge. This was in Glen Ridge, New Jersey, and I read that your mom showed up to support your book and others, and that she read some of your statements defending All Boys Aren't Blue and others. Can I just ask you, what was that like? You know, to have a challenge come up in your state, to have your mom show up? I mean, that just strikes me as something that's like close to home. 

George M. Johnson I got asked if I was going to be in the area and I had to be in Texas and I was like, well, I'm not going to be in the area. I was like, but my mama and my aunts live like 20 minutes from there like, they'll come. And the group that was fighting against the ban was like, wait, really? I was like, yeah. My mom and them will come. So I said to my mom, because we have a group chat, we talk every day—so I just sent a group text and was like, "Hey, y'all, they're trying to ban the book in Glen Ridge, can y'all go? I'm gonna write a letter, can y'all go speak on my behalf?" And they were like, of course we will. We didn't realize, though, that the Glenn Ridge event was going to be like 500, 600 people and police and like—we just thought was gonna be a small school board meeting. We didn't know if was going to have all this press and all of those things. So that kind of was surprising to all of us. But at the same time, you know, that is what my family does. Like, we're family. We stick together. So, what was surprising for, you know, many others was never going to be surprising for me. Like, my family comes to everything that I do. And so they've always supported me. And I wanted people to also see like what solidarity in a Black family looks like. And I remember putting it online and seeing a lot of the comments in the quote Tweets and all of the things. And people were just like, wow. Like, this is what it looks like to support a queer child. This is what it looks like. Resoundingly, people were like, damn, I wish my mother supported me like this or like, we need more mothers to support like this. We need more aunties to support like this. And so it was a beautiful moment because it kind of like opened up community into a space where it's like, yeah, we need more of this. 

Adwoa Adusei What would you say to a young person who's having trouble finding your book or ones like it? 

George M. Johnson It's funny because there's there's a piracy site that has my full book uploaded. And I think a lot of people thought I was going to tell everybody to shut it down. And that was like, no. Like, hey, y'all, and I shared the link. And everybody was like, whoa. Like, listen, the kids need this book. I don't care how they get it. I ain't worried about losing some book sales cause 'cause the kids are looking at my book on a pirated site. Like, if they need the material, get the materials. But also, you know, what I would tell them is like there are now programs like the Brooklyn Public Library has one, but like there are several programs out in the country where, like, they have the e-book program where, you know, people can get banned books. But I always tell, especially when I'm talking to youth, I'm like, you know, if they take the book off the shelf, like the e-books are less expensive, the audiobooks. So it's really about just, you know, taking your time, seeing which books reflect you and the story that you need to hear. And then just like really utilizing your resources to get access to those books when they've been taken from your school libraries.

Buy the banned books, read the banned books and then share your testimonial about the banned books. Because what has happened in this particular culture and climate is that it's a lot of disinformation, misinformation going out. And so we need more people to actually read the books to say, hey, they're saying this book is pornography, but this is actually what I got from the book. The more people that start to do that, the harder their argument becomes. 

Someone from Moms for Liberty, they were arguing like, your book is porn. And I'm like, it's not porn. And then they posted the pages of the book that they felt were too erotic or whatever, and literally people were quote-Tweeting like, well, if your ultimate goal was for kids not to read this, you just put this on the Internet where kids can read it. And she had no response. Right? So it's like, these people are just literally playing off of a playbook that they don't even understand. So the main thing we have to do is have a playbook ourselves that keep these books on the shelf and that pushes back against this narrative that they're trying to paint us into.

Realistically, the country is becoming more diverse. It's becoming less white. That's really what the tea is. And they are literally grasping to keep the stranglehold on this country and keep the stranglehold on nationalism and white supremacy. And realistically, we just have to continue to fight against it, and make it clear that everybody's story deserves to be told. Everybody should learn about the history of this country. Advocating and being vocal and showing up to local meetings helps to do that. 

Virginia Marshall Is there a teen or a young person who connected to your book and maybe reached out to you ... is there a young person's story, I guess, in relation to your book, that you would want to share? 

George M. Johnson During the pandemic, I did a virtual school visit to a school in Boston I believe. But it was one student in particular, they got to meet me and asked me questions and I got to tell them about like the things I thought about when I was struggling through my own identity, and how I got to where I am today and all those things. Like, it gave them the strength to be like, you know what? If George can be who they are, I can be who I am. And they changed their name. They started transitioning. And the teacher literally called me and was like when they changed their name, all the students started clapping, and were supportive. And it was a beautiful moment for this person. And it all happened simply because I chose to show up. 

Then I also did a book talk with 33 people who are over the age of 60 who were queer. They were still saying this is the first time I ever felt seen in a book. And for me, that was a lot to take in. Like, I'm talking to people in their sixties and seventies and they're like, this is the first time I've ever felt seen in a book. I'm just like, wow. I know what that felt like because I went through my middle school years and elementary years and high school years not feeling seen in anything that I read. Then it's like, to be in your sixties and seventies and finally found a book that told your story.... like, it's a bittersweet moment. I think that's the biggest thing I took away from it was like, I'm just glad that I was able to put this in the world because that book is healing a lot of the inner child that never got to feel seen or never got to feel heard and never got their story told.

Virginia Marshall Thanks for sharing that one. I feel like I haven't yet heard that. And it just reminds me that that's so true that we're only now seeing so many books that represent these stories anyway.   

Adwoa Adusei Right. But also just that inner child. You know, like, we're obviously we're focusing on children a lot and the series, but in general with the bans. But like, we were all children.

Virginia Marshall Well, thank you so much. I hope you have a good rest of your day. 

George M. Johnson Okay. Sounds good. Thank y'all so much.   

Adwoa Adusei Thank you. 

[Music]

Adwoa Adusei Borrowed and Banned is a production of Brooklyn Public Library and receives support from the Metropolitan New York Library Council’s Equity in Action Grant. This episode was written by Virginia Marshall and hosted by me and Virginia. 

Virginia Marshall Our Borrowed team includes Ali Post, Fritzi Bodenheimer, Robin Lester Kenton and Damaris Olivo. Ashley Gill and Jennifer Proffit run our social media. Lauren Rochford and Erica Moroz help with the emails. John Snowden designed our logo. The Books Unbanned team at BPL includes Summer Boismier, Jackson Gomes, Nick Higgins, Leigh Hurwitz, Karen Keys, and Amy Mikel.  

Borrowed and Banned is a production of Brooklyn Public Library and receives support from the Metropolitan New York Library Council’s Equity in Action Grant.